VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Questions and Discussions about G-Stomper
TomVal
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VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby TomVal » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:32 pm

I(m trying to use VA Beast as a MIDI playback device controlled from my external keyboard. Latency is good, but - does VA Beast respond to CC 64, i.e. sustain pedal? It's quite vital in Beta 5 with sampled voices, especially with pianos. I'm using the latest beta build and sustain pedal isn't recognized. I didn't change default setup of my external keyboard, so sustain pedal should work, but I can't be 100% sure
TomVal
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby TomVal » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:42 pm

OK, in other apps sustain pedal works normally, so it's VA Beast's issue with that controller. Maybe I'm missing something in settings, though
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planet-h
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby planet-h » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:36 am

Thanks for your message, TomVal. Since this isn't a bug, I've moved the topic over to General Questions and Discussions.

TomVal wrote:I(m trying to use VA Beast as a MIDI playback device controlled from my external keyboard. Latency is good, but - does VA Beast respond to CC 64, i.e. sustain pedal? It's quite vital in Beta 5 with sampled voices, especially with pianos. I'm using the latest beta build and sustain pedal isn't recognized. I didn't change default setup of my external keyboard, so sustain pedal should work, but I can't be 100% sure


Of course the Sustain Pedal is recognised in G-Stomper, as well as any other MIDI CC.
The point is that there's no perfect mapping for everyone, since not everyone is using the pedal in the same way. Therefore the pedal has no default mapping.

So what you have to do is to map the CC64 (learn the mapping) in the MIDI CC setup.

1. Main Screen / SETUP / VA-Beast Synthesizer CC Mappings
2. Now Press whatever parameter you want to map to the pedal
3. Press 'Learn'
4. Press the Pedal

Et voilà, it's mapped and can be used as any other MIDI controller.

For now, the pedal is used as normal MIDI control change from 0-127 (as any other app does).
So if you want to operate the Pedal at a specific range, lets say 25-95, then you have to configure that on your controller.

I'm working on a solution where you can define the pedal range within G-Stomper (ideally per patch), guess that would be more suitable for different instruments.
TomVal
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby TomVal » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:50 am

Well, for us pianists has a Sustain pedal so default function we don't think about anything else. CC64 should be mapped to - well - sustain, for any other purpose there's separate controller named Foot Switch, which is assignable. Many a bit advanced hardware synths/machines have separate jacks for Sustain and Foot Controller, wo it was surprising for me Sustain isn't assigned its default function. But I can understand this, since G Stomper was a drum machine first, and other musical abilities came during its development.

Please, consider mapping a sustain pedal to its assumed purpose, people intending to use VA Beast as a virtual instrument might be confused the same way as was I. Other apps, such as Music Synthesizer, have this done already.
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planet-h
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby planet-h » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:58 am

TomVal wrote:Well, for us pianists has a Sustain pedal so default function we don't think about anything else. CC64 should be mapped to - well - sustain, for any other purpose there's separate controller named Foot Switch, which is assignable. Many a bit advanced hardware synths/machines have separate jacks for Sustain and Foot Controller, wo it was surprising for me Sustain isn't assigned its default function. But I can understand this, since G Stomper was a drum machine first, and other musical abilities came during its development.

Please, consider mapping a sustain pedal to its assumed purpose, people intending to use VA Beast as a virtual instrument might be confused the same way as was I. Other apps, such as Music Synthesizer, have this done already.


And exactly there lies the problem. What should that default mapping be? Of course as the name "sustain pedal" says, mapping cc64 to the amp sustain param would be an option (btw. that's what other apps do). But that won't suite for all kind of sounds. On a piano it's much more suitable to map cc64 to the release param.

This makes it not "that" easy to make create a default mapping, one that suites for everyone.
And... it's a 10 seconds task to map it with the midi learn feature, so that's not such a massive effort.
TomVal
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby TomVal » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:07 am

So mapping of sustain pedal should be part of a preset, as you pointed out
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planet-h
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby planet-h » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:09 am

What is required here is a morph group for the sustain pedal, which is mapped to cc64 by default and where you can map multiple parameters in custom ranges.
That is what professional hardware normally provides.
And that is what's planned for the VA-Beast Synth.

It'll be not only for the sustain pedal.
There'll be at least 4 morph groups:
1 for the Velocity
1 for the keyboard range
1 for the pedal
1 for the modulation wheel
Maybe one more for the After Touch on the KB

And yes, that will be part of the preset (not the midi mapping, that' will be defaulted to the sustain pedal morph group).
TomVal
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby TomVal » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:19 am

You know, even Chopin was very embarassed when he was to play a piano without a sustain pedal. There is even a story how Liszt pulled a sustain pedal rod for Chopin when there was not a sustain pedal itself available, because it was being repaired.

And you're promoting sampling abilities on grand piano preset ...

But still, your work is great and I like the fact you're still developing your amazing app
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planet-h
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby planet-h » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:32 am

TomVal wrote:You know, even Chopin was very embarassed when he was to play a piano without a sustain pedal. There is even a story how Liszt pulled a sustain pedal rod for Chopin when there was not a sustain pedal itself available, because it was being repaired.

And you're promoting sampling abilities on grand piano preset ...

But still, your work is great and I like the fact you're still developing your amazing app


Thank you, TomVal :).
And yes, I fully agree. And as you read in the previous post, this is not about "if" this gets integrated, it's only about "when" and about what is the best way to integrate it. Just creating a temporary mapping is not an option. I want to get this done in a versatile way, and that's what the morph groups are for.

Let me give you an example:
One of the morph groups will have a fixed mapping to cc64, the sustain pedal.
Then in each preset, you'll be able to map parameter partials to this morph group (of course from multiple parameters).
In case of the Piano, this would be probably the "release time" mapped from 330ms (pedal released) up to around 8seconds (pedal fully pressed).
In addition to the release time, there could be mapped other parameters. As you surely know, just increasing the release time on a piano is not the full deal, there's more happening when you press the pedal on a real piano.

So bottom line, you're right, it feels like this is a good moment to get this done.
TomVal
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Re: VA Beast and sustain pedal (CC 64)?

Postby TomVal » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:52 am

Let's finish our discussion. You might consider to keep it simple. Emulating accoustic grand piano is very hard, only few products make it right, and I don't think it's a purpose of G Stomper Studio/VA Beast. Sampled piano sounds are good enough for tracks created by G Stomper, I don't think many mobile devices are powerful enough for gran piano emulation. Most of keyboard players actually don't care about how things work. But as a piano teacher, I have to point out differences between accoustic pianos and their cheap electronic imitations, so they don't get confused about sound/behavior differences between them.

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