[DONE in 5.5] Mixer features

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UrsaMajor
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[DONE in 5.5] Mixer features

Postby UrsaMajor » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:02 pm

- Channel invert phase switch.
Ability to flip the phase of the track.

- Stereo width slider per channel
Perhaps as the "Utility" device in Ableton, where you mix between the mide and side channels.
0 = only the mid channel = everything summed to mono
100 = mid+side (default)
200 = only the side channel

- Channel EQ A/B Compare
Switch to easily switch all bands on and off at the same time.
Handy if you want to compare the original with the tweaked curve.
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planet-h
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Re: Mixer features

Postby planet-h » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:29 am

Thanks a lot for your suggestions.

UrsaMajor wrote:- Channel invert phase switch.
Ability to flip the phase of the track.

Good point, and technically easy to implement.
I'll see what the UI allows.

UrsaMajor wrote:- Stereo width slider per channel
Perhaps as the "Utility" device in Ableton, where you mix between the mide and side channels.
0 = only the mid channel = everything summed to mono
100 = mid+side (default)
200 = only the side channel

Unfortunately this is too much for the mobile devices.
As you see in the VA-Beast synth, the unison is very heavy on CPU.
Apart from the performance, there is absolutely no room for more sliders on the mixers.

May I ask what the use of such a width slider would be?
Would it be helpful during the mixing process or would it remain in the mix at the end?

UrsaMajor wrote:- Channel EQ A/B Compare
Switch to easily switch all bands on and off at the same time.
Handy if you want to compare the original with the tweaked curve.

Also here, great idea, went straight to the task list.

Thanks again;)
UrsaMajor
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Re: Mixer features

Postby UrsaMajor » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:09 am

Thank you for your answers.

planet-h wrote:Unfortunately this is too much for the mobile devices.

I fully understand if there are possible issues regarding performance and so on.

planet-h wrote:the unison is very heavy on CPU.

I am not at all developer, so please excuse my ignorance in this area. But the width feature has more to do with how the L and R channels are summed together. I am not talking about some sort of "widening" effect.

planet-h wrote:May I ask what the use of such a width slider would be?

The main use is for mixing, being able to more accurately control the width and position of the channel. Especially if there are stereo effects as inserts earlier in the chain. Some tracks you want wide, and some you want narrow. And secondly, the new "Lock Mono" feature is great for checking the mono compability for the whole song, but this feature would also give you the option to check individual tracks in mono. The example with the "Utility" device in Ableton takes this a step further, and makes the device a full mid/side mixer where you mix between 0-100-200. There are also other kinds of plugins that do this kind of mid/side processing as well. Another example is from Reason's SSL emulation where you just go between default stereo to summed mono. I think in Pro Tools you always have two individual pan sliders for the L and R channels, so the effect would be similar if pan=0 on both channels.

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planet-h wrote:Apart from the performance, there is absolutely no room for more sliders on the mixers.

As for the GUI, the the sliders could easily fit if they were as a "mode" together with VOL + PAN + WIDTH for example.
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planet-h
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Re: Mixer features

Postby planet-h » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:33 pm

UrsaMajor wrote:But the width feature has more to do with how the L and R channels are summed together.


Exactly what I had in mind.
But unfortunately a bit more than only summing the L and R channels together.

If you look at the signal way in the G-Stomper mixer, you see that there can be send effects be involved at the very end of the channel strip signal chain.
http://www.planet-h.com/gstomper/docs/G-Stomper_UserManual_MixerAndMaster.htm#_Toc471315528

The insert fx are no problem, as they are passed before the vol/pan slider.
That way not even a an extra buffer loop per channel would be required, which would minimize the performance impact.

But what if you use a Auto Panner with an LFO in the send effects, then the width reduction would be gone, as the send effects are passed after the mixer channel.
It wouldn't be possible to apply the width reduction to the used send effects as well, because these might also be used by other channels without any width reduction applied (the send effect routing in G-Stomper is achieved by virtual mixer sub groups).
Last but not least, there are also sum fx in the master section, which also can enlarge the stereo width, e.g. using a Stereo Enhancer or similar.

Handling the complete output chain behind the channel strip would result in a major performance impact, as the signal chain must be split into sub chains per channel (also the audible result would change significantly by such a process)

The "lock mono" switch goes deep into the audio core and affects the complete signal chain from where the sample is read until the sound passes the speaker (including synth and sampler core, fx, mixer, vu's, master and everything).

But I absolutely see the benefit of such a control. Thanks a lot for your explanation about its use, it's great to have experienced users like you aboard.
It would be interesting to know how you think about the mentioned points/side effects (send fx, sum fx).
Could these just be disregarded?
UrsaMajor
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Re: Mixer features

Postby UrsaMajor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:35 am

Thanks a lot for explaining the signal path. Interesting to see that the EQ is applied after the fader.

As you point out, the send would be after the fader (post). In many other DAW's you also have the possibility to switch the sends to be "before" the fader (pre). But I think that even IF the send was pre-fader, they would still be after the actual pan-function right?

So, in our case (post-fader) the send is last in the chain. That is ok. The pan/width of the individual channel would not effect the actual send channel in itself. You can stills send a channel summed to mono into a stereo reverb for example. The original (sound) would then be in mono, but the reverb is still in stereo. Note: the actual SOUND of the original channel can of course be in mono, even if the actual channel consists of a L+R channel.

This is the same in many other DAW's if you group several tracks into a bus and put a stereo effect as an insert on that bus. The bus with the effect is still in stereo, even if the individual tracks are all mono. This would be true also for the auto panner and the stereo enhancer effect for example.
UrsaMajor
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Re: Mixer features

Postby UrsaMajor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:40 am

And as the example with Abletons "Utility" device - it can be used anywhere in the insert chain to sum to mono or make the width more narrow. And then you can place a stereo reverb or a stereo chorus directly after. So it only effects the sound BEFORE the summing.
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planet-h
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Re: Mixer features

Postby planet-h » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:57 am

UrsaMajor wrote:As you point out, the send would be after the fader (post). In many other DAW's you also have the possibility to switch the sends to be "before" the fader (pre). But I think that even IF the send was pre-fader, they would still be after the actual pan-function right?

As already mentioned, the send fx routing in G-Stomper is achieved with virtual mixer sub groups. In other words, the send fx in G-Stomper are actually group inserts, therefore it's technically impossible to switch them to pre-fader. It is handled that way because it uses much less cpu than a regular send/return hookup, and it simplifies the use of typical insert fx (e.g. filter, distortion, compressor, etc.) with typical send/return fx (e.g. delay, reverb, etc.) in the same fx chain. The dry/wet mix (which would be given by a regular send/return routing) is integrated in the fx types which require it (delay, reverb and some others).


UrsaMajor wrote:And as the example with Abletons "Utility" device - it can be used anywhere in the insert chain to sum to mono or make the width more narrow.

In theory, without having looked into the code, that sounds actually possible.
The lock mono already does all these tasks. It would be only required to control the modules (fx, mixer ch, sum fx, master section, etc.) separately.
But that's only theory for now. I have to look into the code to give you a proper statement.
UrsaMajor
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Re: Mixer features

Postby UrsaMajor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:58 pm

Thanks for your answers.

Sometimes i like to make simple diagrams of stuff.
Is this how the signal routing looks?
Or is there more voodoo going on under the hood? Haha :D
Let's say you activate send 1 on the channel, will the signal then be cut off, and be completely routed through the send group?

signal-path-01.jpg
signal-path-01.jpg (41.66 KiB) Viewed 739 times
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planet-h
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Re: Mixer features

Postby planet-h » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:23 pm

UrsaMajor wrote:Thanks for your answers.
Is this how the signal routing looks?

On the point..
I couldn't have drawn it better;)

UrsaMajor wrote:Thanks for your answers.
Let's say you activate send 1 on the channel, will the signal then be cut off, and be completely routed through the send group?

Exactly, it's like re-routing the signal to a mixer sub group (on a hardware mixer) and then attaching an insert fx to that group.

If you activate FX1 for a channel, then the signal is re-routed through the fx and from there to the master section (sum fx + main out).
If no FX(1,2,3) is activated, then the signal goes directly from the mixer channel to the master section (sum fx + main out).
UrsaMajor
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Re: Mixer features

Postby UrsaMajor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:30 pm

Ok now I got it.
Thanks a lot for your patience haha :D

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